The Hawks Case

FOREIGN POLICY: You initially said you wanted Saddam Hussein to be tried outside of Iraq. Why was that?

Ann Clwyd: I wanted an international tribunal. Similar to the other international tribunals that have taken place. I thought you could then get the whole range of international expertise. I didnt believe at the time that Iraqs judges had experience with genocide, war crimes, or crimes against humanity.

FP: Do you think they do now?

AC: Well, they assure me they have the expertise, and they are getting international assistance.

FP: Salem Chalabi, former head of the special tribunal set up to try Saddam, said that Prime Minster Iyad Allawi is planning a show trial; do you think Saddam will get a fair trial?

AC: I think so. The Iraqis know the rest of the world will be watching them. No one wants to be accused of not giving someone as prominent as that, or indeed any of those charged, anything but a fair trial. They are very conscious of this, as many have come back to Iraq from other countries. Im sure they want it to be seen by the world as a fair trial.

FP: When do you think the trial will take place? Do you think it can take place with the current security situation?

AC: Im sure it will take place when theyre ready; I understand theyre not planning any trials until probably the middle or three quarters of the way through 2005, and that will be after the elections.

FP: Do you think the case against Saddam is stronger than the case against Slobodan Milosevic?

AC: All I can tell you is what the international lawyer who was advising Indict at the time [before the war] said..[He] advised that we had enough evidence to indict him, short of getting Saddam to sign a confession in his own blood. It was as stark as that.

FP: How do you think the trial will be viewed in the Arab world? Do you think it will be regarded as legitimate?

AC: I think that depends very much on the way the trial proceeds. And I hope very much that the main people by now have access to lawyers; that is essential.

FP: Do you think Western publics know enough about the human rights situation under Saddam?

AC: No, I dont. Every time some mass grave is excavated, they are shocked all over again. Its a funny business really, because Im surprised the people are shocked when they should have known.

FP: Were hearing a lot about the trial of Saddam, but what is the status of proceeding against other senior regime figures that Indict has claimed it has evidence against, like Tariq Aziz [the former deputy prime minister]?

AC: Its the same situation because these were some people we thought certainly could have been convicted in European courts.We have information on at least 10 of the top names.

FP: Practically, how far down the chain of command do you think these trials should go?

AC: I think thats a matter for the Iraqis, based on the evidence theyve got. I certainly think those people who did give commands must be brought to trial.The top 12 should certainly come to trial and Im pretty sure will.

FP: Should the members of foreign governments who aided Saddam be tried?

AC: That would be a very nice thing to see as well. But I think if the inquiries on the oil for food program vouchers proceed, there should be some very red faces in many countries of the world.

FP: Your case for the war in Iraq has always been the human rights situation. Now, some would argue that if this is the rationale, or the standard, then we should be going into Uzbekistan and Saudi Arabia, and the rest. What made Iraq distinct?

AC: I think the Baathist regime was guilty of some of the worst crimes since the end of the Second World War. Thats how unique I think it is.

FP: And you think theres a magnitude of difference between what happened under Saddam and what is going on in Uzbekistan right now?

AC: I think it is invidious to make comparisons, but I think for instance that in the Sudan, [if it is genocide], then the world should take action. I know Kofi Annan has set up a commission on genocide, but if you cant get the Security Council to act, then we need to look at the whole workings of the United Nations on these matters.

FP: Tony Blair sacked you in 1995 from the shadow cabinet for taking a trip to Iraq to talk with Kurds about human rights abuses, yet now he lauds your work. Hes made you special envoy for human rights in Iraq, and cites Indicts work as a part of his justification for the war. What do you think changed his mind about Iraq?

AC: In the years that Ive been campaigning Id have to say very few people were interested in Iraq. A handful protested about Halabjah [the gassing of a Kurdish town in 1988], but I cant answer for my colleagues, I really cant.