Seven Questions: Chinese Repression

Betsy Huang: Do you think that attention on the laogai has waned? Is it no longer on the forefront of public consciousness as it was back in, say, 1995, after your return from your most recent trip to China?

Harry Wu: I dont think the attention has decreased. For example, last year the Oxford Dictionary finally entered laogai as a word, which gives it official recognition.

Laogai is the tool of the dictatorship. Laogai is not simply like a prison in the United States, where you commit a crime and you are punished by being deprived of your freedom; it is a political system. Some believe that investing in trade with China is a way to peacefully and gradually change this totalitarian system. But these people want to dismiss the dark side. They say that the country is changing, so we can stop our containment policy and do something that is good for [China] and good for us.

Im confused by this [notion]. During the Cold War, Western countries boycotted, sanctioned, and isolated the Soviet empire. In the end, we brought down the Berlin Wall. And when we heard about discrimination in South Africa, we boycotted the whole country. Today, Cuba is still under an embargo. I dont understand why we single out China [for special treatment.]

If it were true that money can change the totalitarian regime, I would support that policy. That kind of peaceful evolution is good for everyone. Unfortunately, I dont think thats the case. As we say, do you think you can convince a tiger to become a vegetarian?

BH: Why is it so difficult to obtain information on the laogai? There are people whove been released and reformed. Why arent more of these people speaking out and exposing the laogai system as youve tried to do?

HW: Human beings are very different, but they have one thing in common: life belongs to them only once. And this life is short. After the horrible ordeal in the labor camps, no one wants to repeat the experience, to talk about it. Its not enjoyable. Everyone wants to forget about it. I survived, they say, so let me enjoy the rest of my life. This is understandable.

We dont know how many laogai exist in China. We dont know how many people were sent to the camps, and how many vanished in them. We dont even know the location of the camps. These are state secrets. The reason why I was sentenced and put in the laogai for 15 years is that I wanted to steal state secrets. The laogai is top secret in China, just like the camps were once top-secret in Germany during the Nazi regime, just like the labor camps in Siberia were under Stalins rule.

But we have to know that each of those camps contained thousands of people who lost their lives and freedom. Theyve suffered, and their families are suffering. We have no right to say sorry, its over, and were all fine now.

BH: What do you say to the argument that the benefits of providing Chinese workers the jobs they sorely need outweigh the cost of human rights violations?

HW: The question is: What do the Chinese really need? Jobs? Money? Or freedom? If Im a free man, I can make money. I can find a job. I dont need the government to feed me. But I dont have that freedom in China. There are no unions, no strikes. Cheap labor is everywherein Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Africa. But cheap labor in China is also obedient, so this is a very good place to invest, if you have a good relationship with the government. This is why foreign companies who want to do business in China first seek out high-level government officials to become partners.

BH: How does raising the issue of human rights with China affect the cost of labor? Do you believe that foreign corporations avoid the subject of human rights because the cost of labor might go up if they pressured the Chinese government to raise standards?

HW:Chinese workers do benefit from foreign businesses, but this is only one side of the story. The other side is that it also benefits the government. Only a part of the profit goes to the people. This is why the Chinese government today has tremendous wealth. In this way, foreign businesses are giving the dying Communist system a blood transfusion. If the Soviets had the same business opportunities with the West as China does today, I dont think the regime would have collapsed when it did.

You can see how the Chinese government uses that money. They upgrade their military systems, they hire people to police the Internet, they buy high-tech from the U.S., they hire former Soviet military expertstheyre becoming Russias number-one advanced weapons purchaser.

BH: Do you ever feel as though the politicians who work with you are using you to serve their own political agendas?

HW: Sure. But Im using them, too. Why did I testify on Capitol Hill? Because the United States is the No. 1 country in the world. Anything that comes from Capitol Hill, the media is willing to talk about it. If I testify in Turkey, the Philippines, Japanno one will pay attention. This is the stage I want to occupy.

I had a very good friend and ally in the SenateJesse Helms (R-NC, ret.). He is hated by many, but Jesse Helms is firmly anti-Communist. On this point, hes wonderfulbetter than some liberals who welcome Communist leaders. And I had another good friend on the far leftPaul Wellstone (D-MN), who died a few years agobecause his primary attention was on human rights. People have said, Harry, youre the only person who can bring the Right and the Left together like this.

Far left and far rightI dont care about these Senators other concernsI cant. I just want to talk about human rights in China. If you want to give me a hand, yes, maybe you have your own agenda, but I dont mind. I just talk about my own issues and get as many people to support me as possible.

BH: How do you feel about the United Statess current relationship with China?

HW: During the 2004 presidential debates between John Kerry and George Bush, there was not a single word about China. But everybody is aware that this is a big issue. The United States has no long-term policy towards China. The Republicans talk about free enterprise and free markets for China. The first President Bush wanted to give China technologies, weapons, and business to open up the market there. In 1992, [Bill] Clinton said in his campaign speeches that he would cancel [Chinas] MFN status if he were to be elected. In 1993, his first year as president, he issued an executive order for China to meet certain conditions [to maintain its trading privileges]. But in 1994 he did away with the executive order because he needed the support of corporations. So what is the difference between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to doing business with China? Its like what Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan said: Corporations run the United States.

BH: A difference is that we have many powerful corporations while China has only onea giant state-run corporation.

HW: If we really want to understand China and have a good China policy, we have to go back to two peoples ideas. The first is John King Fairbank, the godfather of Sinologists. He understands Chinese history, tradition, culture, and he seemed to believe that communism, while not good for the U.S., may be good for China.

Because of his evaluation, many accept that China is the country that it is, and no one talks about democracy, freedom, or equality. The U.S. has only two hundred years of history, while China has thousands. Thats the way they are and nothing can be done about it. Some have the view that Soviet communism is terrible and must be dismantled, but with China they let it be because thats the way they are.

But Fairbanks [last] book, which he turned in to the publisher but didnt see in print because he died in the meantime, was published after the Tiananmen Square movement. In it, he had changed some of his earlier ideas, and believed that communism in China was terrible, unacceptable. This was a change that came too late because his earlier views were so influential for so long.

The second persons ideas that have [unfortunately] influenced American thinking about China is Henry Kissinger. Kissinger, the godfather of U.S. policy towards China. He was kind to Chinese dictators. He himself is Jewish and is of course aware of the legacy of the Holocaust, of dictatorships. But he did nothing about Chinese human rights abuses, because he is concerned with strategies of balance. He didnt care about human rights or democracy. He wanted to use China to balance the Soviet Union, Japan. So Kissinger established good relations with Beijing.

Harry Wu is executive director of the Laogai Research Foundation. Betsy Huang is assistant professor of English at Clark University.